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Posted on: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:37pm

ApocryphaAnimus (#65125)

Oh and one last thing, quote:

"We are not a separate species we're all human beings"

You know, if society actually started treating non-straight/cis people like human beings and not a lesser species, that would be a start. THEN we can talk about including straight+cis people, maybe.

Posted on: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:38pm

Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818)

I suppose that's true.. you can't really tell who has abused non cis+straight people. I've been cursed with being extremely naive and optimistic I hadn't really thought about that I wanted to focus on the positive it could do for all of us.

I've personally gotten abuse from the LGBTQ community because so many people have said my sexuality wasn't valid and Demisexuality is toxic for saying it's apart of the Ace spectrum so I guess I kinda felt bad that I had forgotten about someone... I do wish people would love and support each other but perhaps there's a better way to do so but I don't think we'll convince much of anyone to accept being an ally and wear the colors of friends and family that they support which is really a shame.

I'm really sorry if I've upset you or stirred anything up for anyone else it really wasn't my intention I wanted to make everyone happy.

Posted on: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:41pm

Aria T'Loak (#58686)

I have to say I've looked over what you and fannish have said and though I would love to one day include everybody in a celebration I suppose it's best that it's kept to the ones who have suffered. It makes sense yes but hopefully like you say when they start treating non-straight/cis like human beings we can add them into the celebration.

I'm sorry I got kinda carried away with wanting to please everyone I hadn't even thought of the flip side

Posted on: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:46pm

Remember that we are not all from the USA. I spoke to someone here who explained to me what it can be like in America, which makes me fully understand this event.
However, not all countries are like this. Quite some European countries, especially Belgium where I live, act completely different towards mogii people. Over here they're pretty much being treated the same as cis/het. So I do get why cis/het people like me are offended by this event. Maybe if the story on how mogii gets in some parts of the world should have been added so that people know why this event happens.

Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818) Also, just because one cis/het told you to kill yourself (which is horrendous) doesn't mean we are all like that. That's the American logic of "one black guy killed someone so all black people are murderers".

Posted on: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:47pm

Remember that we are not all from the USA. I spoke to someone here who explained to me what it can be like in America, which makes me fully understand this event.
However, not all countries are like this. Quite some European countries, especially Belgium where I live, act completely different towards mogii people. Over here they're pretty much being treated the same as cis/het. So I do get why cis/het people like me are offended by this event. Maybe if the story on how mogii gets in some parts of the world should have been added so that people know why this event happens.

Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818) Also, just because one cis/het told you to kill yourself (which is horrendous) doesn't mean we are all like that. That's the American logic of "one black guy killed someone so all black people are murderers".

Posted on: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:09am

Aria T'Loak (#58686)

So I may be misinterpreting the tone of your messages, so forgive me if I am, but you seem to be under the assumption that ApocryphaAnimus is themself cis/straight and is another person trying to argue for "Hey, why isn't straight pride here huh? Oh, we're not allowed in your pride event??"

This is actually not the case at all ;u; They are actually demisexual and nonbinary, and were just feeling sympathy with seeing the people upset by not being included since they have experienced exclusion as a demisexual in many circles. All they were trying to do was comfort the people who were upset.

Also, in the heat of the moment some of their posts weren't worded or as well thought out as they could have been, and you may have misread their intent. They never intended to imply that everyone should just be nice to the poor straight people, they want everyone, straight people included, to get along and be nice to each other rather than facing off or being at odds. They weren't trying to downplay the struggle of everyone who's been oppressed, or suggest we look past it to magically fix it, but once again they sent things a bit to fast to really word it out properly. What they want is for everyone to work together to stand up for each other.

So I'm really sorry to butt in, and I'm sorry for the misunderstandings, but I felt this was necessary to bring up to stop the argument that was never meant to be an argument ;u;

Posted on: Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:34am

Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818) I am sorry for the death threats that is wrong I never wish death on people. I just want everyone to be friends get along we are all diffrent so be it.
Aria T'Loak (#58686) ummm I am very friendly a good friend of mine is a lesbian and I am like I want to come to your wedding when I am as straight as can be.

WendiGhost (#38628) you got it my thing was mainly cause he said he was upset about the item not being there be happy he had something to represent him not all did. I wasn't at all trying to get it included just wanted him to appreciate what he had *nods* I just want everyone to get along I love being very friendly and talking to people.

Posted on: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:29am

Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818)
Perhaps relevant as a final evaluation of this event, but I think one thing that has gotten more and more clear over time is in this event, that certain parts of Aywas take "specific knowledge" for granted as "common knowledge", and then expect everyone else to have this "common knowledge" (we all do this all the time. If we are experts within a specific field, we kinda expect everyone else to at least know the basics from that field).

I think a lot (not all) of the conflicts within this event could have been avoided, if the event had started out explaining things, all of the even holders take for absolutely granted "everybody HAS to know this by now" knowledge. Maybe even make a FAQ page, that can be linked every time new items comes out, explaining these basic things.
Because people outside of the MOGAI community - even people within the MOGAI community - don't all know these things.

First of all, over time, context has kinda been lost to the "pride" phrase. Sure, it should be assumed that people can fill in the blanks, and know that "pride items" coming out during a pride event should be "MOGAI pride items" or "Rainbow pride items". But obviously... This is not the case. A lot of people fail at making this connection.
Also, because the items aren't named "XXX Rainbow Pride item" or "XXX MOGAI Pride Item" - for various other good reasons - they lose this context for a lot of people. So these people go "wait a minute, there's 23+ pride items but this major group is excluded. Why? Why are we not allowed to accept who we are and feel good about that?" - This is not helped by the fact that the descriptions on a lot of the items, also don't give out the context that they're part of a rainbow pride event.
The Pride term needs to be explained. And it rather obviously need to be explained better, that it's pride within this specific MOGAI event. 'cause you only need to read through every single news post to see, that this information hasn't reached a lot of Aywas people.

Sadly (or maybe luckily), I also think it really needs to be explained, that "majority pride", very often is connected with hate-groups.
White pride = racism. Most people know this by know...
But a lot of people outside MOGAI circles, and especially people from places like Northern Europe, don't know that "straight pride" is used by anti-MOGAI hate groups, and it'd be items like that that was worn at anti-MOGAi demonstrations.
Without this knowledge, you will see people that are friendly and accepting towards MOGAI people, not understanding why a "heterosexual pride" t-shirt would be offensive - or even triggering - to a lot of MOGAI people.

I really think a FAQ page, that could be linked from the start of the event every time someone was asking these things could be helpful.
First of all it'd save people (the event holders) a lot of time. Also, it could be written before everyone had had to ask these questions several times from upset users, making them upset with their answers as well.
Anyway, just a suggestion.

Posted on: Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:08am

ApocryphaAnimus (#65125) I appreciate the offer. You really didn't need to do that though. <3
Aria T'Loak (#58686)
Fannish (FreeFlier) (#1818)
Since I'm aparently being lumped into some group that complaining about no straight items... Let me clarify.. Here again is my only comment:
"Hetero/cis don't need to "find themselves" or deal with people saying you aren't real or are an abomination.

That is why straight doesn't belong in pride. They aren't oppressed, ridculed, or ignored intirely."

Except on Aywas (apparently)... Thanks for that.. I can feel the love.. I'm gonna go hide in my corner again so my sexuality doesn't offend you anymore.

If you want to read that again, you will see that I'm not complaining about no straight items. (It would be nice if there was a straight ally item or two, but I don't really care either way) my complaint is that you can't say "straights don't get oppressed or ignored.. So they don't matter, ignore them"... I have no problem with the event as it is.. I have a problem with the straight hating.

So by all means, continue to take offense to straight people wanting to be involved in celebrating with you... continue to try to ignore us and shove us in a corner so you don't have to remember that we exist.. However I have to say (from a strong LGBTQ supporter) that if you continue to treat others in a manner that you do not also wish to be treated.. You may begin to lose support.

Posted on: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:39am

Okay:

ApocryphaAnimus (#65125)
I never said there is a problem with wanting to please everyone. I can understand where you're coming from and I can only be glad that positive and friendly people like you exist. But I hope you understand that it is important that oppressed groups get the representation they need and deserve?

Sany (#67610)
I just want to say, if that's the case where you live, then congratulations. I live in Germany, just next door basically, and people like me definitely do not get treated like cis/het people here or in any other country I've ever been to in Europe, and I've traveled a lot. But even if Europe was "nice" doesn't change the facts that in other countries, people get killed LEGALLY for being trans, or gay, or anything not cis/het. Thing is, just because one part of a group isn't suffering so bad, doesn't mean we don't have to stand up for our brothers and sisters who are suffering.

WendiGhost (#38628)
I never assumed that they were cis/het. In generally I never assume anything about someone's gender/sexuality unless it is pointed out, so I never assumed they're just "another straight person". But see, the fact that most of society assumes cis/het = default is the reason a Pride event is needed without cis/het people in it.

Lady Evelon (#58780)
Just because you have a lesbian friend doesn't give you special privileges. I'm white, but I still don't go around saying the n-word just because I have a black friend. Just for your information, straight people are more often than not welcome as supporters at Pride events.

Gwennafran (#22320)
Thanks for that. The phrase "straight pride" alone makes my skin crawl because I've had it screamed at me by hate groups way too often at demonstrations. An FAQ would've been nice, I agree, though I also feel, if someone is able to be on Aywas, they're also able to type something into google if they don't understand it.

Rob (#6546)
Let me just quote you: "I'm gonna go hide in my corner again so my sexuality doesn't offend you anymore." See, YOU never had to hide in a corner your whole life for your sexuality. Being straight offends NO ONE, that is the point of all this.
Straight people are more than welcome to celebrate pride events with you. Tons of my straight friends come to Pride events with me every year, celebrate, eat cake, have a good time. But I will never support a "straight pride" item. Your straight pride item is the society we live in.

Also, if the only reason you support LGBTQ people is because you want to get a pat on the shoulder and a cookie for it, then I'm sorry, but we don't need supporters like that.

And last words:

LGBTQ people are a group that is OPPRESSED. Cis/het people are the OPPRESSORS. That is the fact, plain as day. The reason there is no "straight pride" in Pride events is simply:

An oppressed group deserves a celebration without the very group that oppresses us.

(And sorry for dragging this on, but this issue is very important to me, and one point of Pride events is to encourage discussion and education.)